On Vegans

[dcseain]

Reply to this post saying “pick me” or something similar. I'll pick one of your interests, and then you must tell me a a lot about it. Then I (and the other readers here) will learn a bit more about you and your interests.

muzikmaker21 picked Vegans from my interest list:

Vegans

(not veganism, but vegans)

I met my first vegetarian when i started high school. I knew they existed, especially among adherents of Hinduism, but i'd net met one. The first vegans i became aware of were my cousin Katherine and her hubby, Ottmar. I remember going to the Rini-Rego Stop-N-Shop with my grandfather in 1986, and showing him that cooking vegan was not hard, it just meant he had to read ingredient lists more carefully.

I met nadyalec my first year of high school, which started late that same summer. She and her sister, L, were vegetarians when i met them. L became a vegan not too long after i'd gotten to know them. But anyway, L was the first vegan i really knew, and i hung with a largely veggie crowd. L did it for mostly animal rights reasons. For that matter, aside from agentxs, who is vegan for health reasons, all the vegans i have known are vegans for animal rights reasons, and that plays a significant role for agentxs, too, form my understanding, though it was not his initial impetus for the dietary lifestyle.

Part of my interest in vegans, is that i'm too lazy to be one; what's life without yogurt, and butter, and cheese, and heavy cream. I eat those despite my lactose intolerance. The effort of maintaining veganism is just not worth it to me, though i eat, and cook, vegan often.

I have no animal rights component in my vegetarianism, ovo-lacto variety, or at best no more than your average Hindu. Most vegans i've met have a strong animal-rights bent. My family is fairly crunchy on both sides, so i understand the concept of animal rights, and having spent many a school break on a small, family-run, dairy farm, i saw, and learned, first-hand, how to properly treat animals. I learned first-hand, how to kill a chicken and a fish with minimal cruelty, and according to kashruth.

I've experienced funny looks from strangers as my sister and i scold her young children when they go to chase animals who are minding their own business; one must respect the natural world, of which we are a part. Just because they let their children terrorize the pigeons and squirrels does not mean we need to teach our children to be such disrespectful hellions. *steps down from soapbox*

So, in summary, my interest in vegans is fundamentally all about why they've chosen to be vegan, as i am too lazy to do so myself, in part because it makes dining out rather a pain in the ass.

Comments

[muzikmaker21.livejournal.com]

That was completely different from the reason that agentxs and I hypothesised a while back, although I can't remember what that was.

Just because they let their children terrorize the pigeons and squirrels does not mean we need to teach our children to be such disrespectful hellions

Well said, sir.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

in nomine

Though i have a tiny curiosity about Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller, though i presume in your case it's a purely musical thing, whereas for me, they were in part responsible for the fact that my great-grandmother divorced her first husband. Not per se their fault, she was the floozy flapper who liked to sleep with Jewish boys, after all.

[muzikmaker21.livejournal.com]

It is indeed a purely musical thing. There is a very, very soft spot in my heart for the Big Band sound and those two geniuses in particular. Just something about the sound, I guess.

Benny Goodman was smart enough to take something he hated and turn it into something he loved. He did not want to play the clarinet, but it was all the local music store owner had that his family could afford. I believe he actually wanted to play the trumpet, but I could be wrong. Still, he took an instrument that doesn't traditionally belong in that genre and made a hell of a place for it.

Glenn Miller has a very unmistakable style that any Big Band aficionado can recognize within seconds, and his trombone playing is just...wow.

...so your great-grandmother slept with Benny Goodman? MAN I'm jealous.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

She slept with Glenn Miller, too. Goodman was just the one that preciptated the divore.

I didn't mean to distract you, but the interest i actually was asking about was in nomine, mostly cause it's odd from my POV, and you're not alone.

[dr-tectonic.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested to know which of my interests you find interesting.

In part because I no longer have any idea what I've listed, and I'm now resisting the urge to look to see if I'm surprised.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

barbie tarot wins, hands down.

[nosebeepbear.livejournal.com]

Me!

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

Touch

[nadyalec.livejournal.com]

me please.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

Fall on your knees

[sagesaria.livejournal.com]

*stretches arm up* Ooh! Ooh! Ooh pick me! Pick me!

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

Out-of-context-quotes

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Hm.
I met one of agentxs's friends, who is vegan purely for health reasons and is probably the only vegan I've ever met who's willing to sample the broccoli in sauce from an otherwise meat dish.

agentxs has been allergic to milk products all his life, but if I recall he eliminated meat while still quite young, and by the time I met him not only would eat no product made from nor by animals but would wear no wool nor silk, let alone leather. The US immigration vaccination requirements posed a challenge, as some are grown in egg. I think he successfully fought it.

So I don't know whether he'd agree with you that he started down the path for health reasons. As far as I've ever understood his motivation's been from an animal welfare perspective.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

You've an excellent point, and your chronolgy of him matches my own, though i perceive the milk allergy as a stronger initial force. The fact that he gave up meat so young supports your perceptionthat animal welfare was a motivator. I know he and i have discussed, so i'm likely misremembering to some degree.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

I think we're working from different concepts, anyway. If someone gave up meat for health reasons and then later went along and gave up milk and eggs for animal reasons I'd see that as starting down the path for health reasons.

Conversely, lonebear stays away from milk products because of health issues* but he'll order his steak "rare enough that a good vet could save it."

I suppose I simply don't see giving up milk as a step toward vegetarianism in anywhere near the same way that giving up meat is. So if someone always had to avoid milk and then later stopped eating meat, I'd see the first step toward being a vegan as being the meat step, not the milk step.



* although he'll occasionally eat something and suffer calculated consequences

[ksatyr.livejournal.com]

Wow, I feel like such a star, being discussed and all!

vvalkyri is quite right. I never gave up milk products, instead I would say that I've never intentionally consumed them, just as I have not intentionally ingested strychnine, cyanide, arsenic, mercury and the like. For me avoiding dairy would not be a choice but a necessity, so in assessing my veganism, one must ignore such products.

As for the rest of my veganism, that started from a very early age by rejecting baby foods containing meat (and my parents didn't want to force the issue) making me an early vegetarian on taste grounds. Later on I was persuaded to eat meat until I figured out what it was, at which time (around age 9?) I would be somewhat vegetarian again, this time for more ethical grounds. From then on I slowly rejected more and more of what I consider to be the cruelty towards and exploitation of animals, who have no voice to protest with.

I would say I was a true vegan once I got to university at around age 18 or 19, avoiding not only food products but clothing and such.

[papertigers.livejournal.com]

me, please.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

Oh, hedonism, please! It's a fav of mine.

[papertigers.livejournal.com]

do i do it here or in my journal?

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

Whatever makes you happy. I did a separate post because i delayed responding by 6 weeks or so.

hedonism.

[papertigers.livejournal.com]

my introduction to hedonism happened in high school, in an elective social studies class (the history of political thought). among other things, we read excerpts of John Stuart Mill's On Liberty and Utilitarianism, which i've since read in their entirety multiple times. i'm a huge JSM fan for multiple reasons, but initially it was for love of his distinguishing between negative and positive liberty and his belief that actions are judged moral in proportion to how much happiness they produce in society as a whole. these were all radical ideas for a 16 year-old who'd been raised Baptist by a former Roman Catholic, but they made more instinctive sense to me than anything i'd heard in a sermon or read in the Bible. the fact that JSM was writing as a Christian made his ideas even more compelling, for all they contradicted most of what i'd been taught about the nature of God and the world in Bible school.

i should clarify that i'm an altruistic hedonist; i have a hedonistic appreciation for sensual pleasures, but i see pursuit of spiritual and intellectual pleasures as essential to a good life and to full enjoyment of the sensual as well. for all my introversion, my moral compass is collectivist, not individualist, so i see my purpose as increasing the amount of goodness in my community, not just in my life.

Re: hedonism.

[debboamerik.livejournal.com]

And, speaking as a Christian, I will say that enjoyment is a big part of the point. One of the things my parents really loved to say when I was a kid was, "Why did God make you? Because he thought you'd like it." I think increasing the good in the community is enjoyable for a reason; it's supposed to be, and that's part of the plan. If you don't do it with joy and a whole heart, don't do it at all, because you're probably doing more harm than good.

Re: hedonism.

[selki.livejournal.com]

I also like JSM because of his defense of free speech, and his support of women's rights.

[debboamerik.livejournal.com]

me? please? looks like fun!

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

Irish politics, please, as it seems rather out of place among the rest.

Taoiseach

[debboamerik.livejournal.com]

...you really do want me to write a lot, don't you?

I can't really remember much about the development of my interest in Irish politics. My Granny (great-grandmother), an intrepid world traveler, was Irish (in origin) and went to Ireland during my childhood. There was always something of a feeling running under the surface of that part of my family that we had been tossed out like so much garbage. I knew about Cromwell and British aggression from a young age. I knew that it had followed us to the New World, as evidenced by the glorification of Cromwell and other figures in early 20th century history texts. But while I was young, my knowledge of the subject was rather dated.

I am also a lifelong U2 fan - was singing along with Boy and War and October when I was still too young to understand half the words. By the time I was 11, I'd gotten a preliminary introduction to 20th century Irish politics through the reading of various books about the band. I was an enthusiast, always, and did a lot of reading on Eamon De Valera, Michael Collins, the Easter 1916 uprising, W.B. Yeats, and other such topics. I only really appreciated these things later; Yeats remains one of my favorite poets (I tend to favor his era for poetry anyhow). I also remember being interested at the election of Mary Robinson as Irish President (because *we* didn't have a woman president, more proof of how cool the Irish are). I was 13 at the time.

My interest in the dynamics of conflict and current international politics have spurred me over the course of my life to a deeper understanding of today's (divided) Irish politics. I came to it from a nationalist/Republican perspective to begin with, of course. It would have been hard for me not to have. I have not changed in that I see the British in Ireland as aggressors. However, as I've grown up, I have realized several things. One is that London does not really want Northern Ireland. They stay out of a not at all misplaced loyalty to the people that they themselves planted there. I have nothing but admiration for the collaboration between Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and the British Prime Minister's office in bringing peace to the province. I do not believe that reuniting with the main body of Ireland will bring peace to the North, and that is reinforced by the knowledge that the most bloody paramilitaries in Ireland are Unionist (in favor of continued union with Britain), and the IRA is deeply involved in the international arms and drugs trades - they're basically a criminal organization. I was also horrified when they prosecuted a little girl who went to England for an abortion at about the same time. So were a lot of Irish people, actually, and that case resulted in a lot of social and legal change.

Without the IRA, Sinn Fein would be a rather cute little group of socialists. I asked for, but did not receive, their calender for Christmas two years ago, out of pure curiousity over the photos. I am interested in how the politics of the North affect the politics of the main body of Ireland from time to time. I've also been very interested in the Celtic Tiger phenomenon (Ireland has the largest and fastest-growing economy in Europe), and the resulting immigration. Ireland has long been happy to receive any immigrants who are willing to *be* Irish, but these days there are fewer and fewer Irish-owned pubs in Ireland. That's a lot of immigration. French and Polish people are flocking to Ireland in droves. When the economy is not so good, there will be a lot more hostility, I think - that's what happens here. I was interested at the smoke-free public spaces law - especially when several members of the Dail were penalized for smoking in the bathrooms on the first day the law was in force!

Lots more to say, but that's my introduction. :)